Navigating the Intersection of Men's Mental Health and Nutrition

When Jasdeep walked through our studio door, the weight of his experiences in social work and his passion for men's mental health filled the room. Our conversation quickly unfurled into a tapestry of insights, connecting the dots between emotional well-being and nutrition in the context of men's lives. Tackling the societal molds that often constrain men's emotional expression, Jasdeep's expertise sheds light on the profound impact these pressures have on male eating habits, particularly for those navigating high-stress environments like the foster care system and blue-collar professions.

As we ventured deeper into our discussion, the complexities of managing emotions and coping mechanisms came to the fore. With the wisdom of someone who's seen the struggle from the front lines, Jasdeep helped us understand the cultural and environmental factors that drive some men towards alcohol as a way of dealing with life's stresses. The journey to recognizing triggers and reducing dependency is not a solitary one, and we explored the supportive frameworks that can guide one down the path of healthier choices, be they related to substance use or nutrition. Personalized care, empathy, and strong support systems emerged as crucial elements for anyone grappling with these issues.

Our final thoughts circled back to the heart of our chat: the importance of creating a stigma-free zone for men's mental health. Jasdeep's call to action is not just a whisper but a resonant call across the societal divide—urging men to step beyond archaic notions of masculinity and embrace their mental health journeys with the same courage it takes to ask for help. As the conversation wrapped, we were left with a sense of hope and a reminder that the strength of character often lies in vulnerability and the authenticity of our shared human experiences. Join us and experience the warmth and wisdom Jasdeep brings to this crucial conversation.

Want to make an appt to talk to Jasdeep?  Call: 559-930-2210

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:18

Hey, hey, welcome back to another episode in the Simple Nutrition Insights Podcast. I am your host, leonila Campos, registered dietitian, and today I have a guest, jadip, and I'm excited to talk to him and talk about men in mental health, and so I'll let him introduce himself and then we'll start with the interview. Hi, jadip.

Speaker 2: 0:39

Hi, how's it going? Yeah, my name is Jadip. I work in a private practice as a mental health clinician. Um, I have my master's in social work, uh, from the jewel of california, fresno, and um, yeah, I, yeah, that's it. I'm really interested in men's mental health. Uh, partly due to kind of like my own upbringing and my own experiences as being a man.

Speaker 1: 1:01

Awesome. Yeah, thank you for sharing that and also for for coming to the podcast. You know it's interesting because in the in the dietetics field, too right I did some research, too right In the sense of the social worker area, right and I found and I can link that that website to you that has the statistics but I found out that about 16.1% of social workers in the US are men. And then it gives the breakdown of ethnicities and so in your experience and just becoming right and getting your master's in social work, I'm sure you saw that also right and not a lot of male were going into that career of social work.

Speaker 2: 1:52

Yeah, no, I you know there were very. I think there were like in my cohort. There were only, like it was, a four guys and one of them, another guy was a Marine, and then you know a couple other guys and that was it. Yeah, that was it, my entire program. There were only four of us.

Speaker 1: 2:09

Yeah, that's really interesting. Right, it is a women dominated field, even for dietetics too. So what? What got you into social work, you know, or going into that and into that field? What made you decide to go into that field?

Speaker 2: 2:25

Yeah, no, that's a great question, you know, like. So there's, you know, they always say like hindsight's 20-20, right. So, reflecting on my past, I can point to many instances where I realized like, oh man, like I'd love to be a social worker, a mental health clinician or something, love to be a social worker, a mental health clinician or something. But I think one of the most important ones for me was, I think, leaving the military. I was in the Marine Corps for four years.

Speaker 2: 2:49

I served as an infantryman, a rifleman, and from 2006 to 2010, getting out of the military was one of the kind of most disorienting experiences, you know, and I knew it was the same for a lot of my friends as well, and I and that kind of like impulse to want to help them, this desire to help, you know and I don't know if it was for myself at the time it was just kind of a mishmash of emotions that I was trying to make sense of that I couldn't at the time. So I thought, you know, community work, which is really deeply tied to my tradition as well, which is the Sikh tradition, really kind of propelled me in the direction to find any kind of work that led me to work with, you know either underserved populations, veterans and any individual in that kind of like capacity.

Speaker 1: 3:37

Perfect yeah.

Speaker 2: 3:39

Okay, perfect.

Speaker 1: 3:41

Yeah, and so now you're working in a private practice and usually you're seeing your clients and I really, you know it's fascinating to see how culture plays a role, right, and we're not going to go in super detail about that, right, but because I do also see men in my practice, right, I mostly see women that come to me for nutrition services, but I also see men in my practice, right, and oftentimes they're not used to people, right, asking them about their emotions, about their stress, or how they handle stress, or resolutions about their stress, or how they handle stress, or you know how they feel about, you know, eating.

Speaker 1: 4:26

And so these are questions that I ask, right, because if they're coming to me because, for example, most of them come to me for weight loss, right, I want to be able to understand where maybe their, their root cause is of, like, if there's overeating, right, or if they're skipping meals during the day and they're just, you know, eating more in the evening, I want to understand why, right, of course, I love that as clinicians and as health professionals we are able to refer patients right to other professions.

Speaker 1: 5:03

So I always refer my patients that are struggling with depression or they don't know, right, that they have these really deep emotions, to therapists, because that's way out of my scope of practice. But in order for me to be able to help them right in the nutrition aspect, we have to be able to address the underlying reasons. And so oftentimes men, right, my male clients they have no idea that they're struggling, right, For example, to overeat in the evening because they are super stressed, right, and they come home and they're like I feel out of control. I feel like I ate my dinner but I continue to eat and I don't know why, right. Or I had a really stressful day and all I want to do is come home and have a piece of cake, right, and I feel so good.

Speaker 1: 5:53

Now, as a dietician, I understand, okay, there's the food aspect. Is what's, you know, helping you feel better? Right, but we're not addressing the issue, right, we're not addressing other ways of also helping you feel better without having nothing to do with food. And so, in your expertise, right, why do you think that this is not talked about? Right, Like, why do you think that men, right, or males. Don't talk about their emotions as much.

Speaker 2: 6:27

Yeah, I think so. I think when it comes to, let's say, just discussing emotions, I think one of the things is that, you know, being kind of aware of how to respond as well to someone that's being vulnerable also isn't really kind of instilled within us. Nobody grows up thinking, hey look, if someone's depressed and they're coming to you, how do you talk to your boy? And I think there's this kind of guys just miss each other. My habit was like, hey, man, how are you doing bro? I was like, oh, I'm kind of struggling and I kind of like, god damn, that sucks, dude, you know, and it's sure, I'm sure it feels cathartic in that moment, but it doesn't never really kind of goes beyond that.

Speaker 2: 7:11

And so, within therapy, especially when guys come over to my sessions, um, you know, one of the things I do is first, I kind of like try to normalize the fact that hey look, as a guy and I always make it a point to mention some way shape or form, you know, my service in the military, because they put a lot of stock into that Right, this idea that you know like, ok, he was in the Marine Corps, he must have some sort of tough guy credentials, right, and, as a result, like he's giving me permission to, hey, dude, it's okay to kind of feel weak sometimes, you know, we all do.

Speaker 2: 7:44

You know, even as a former Marine, and I've had my days too you know no-transcript and I don't want to play, you know, flat image because it is changing. A lot more men are talking about mental health and I'm seeing it in the office. However, I think one of the reasons why people aren't willing to is because it's a painful experience. What, what do we uncover when we kind of tap into their histories, right, what do we uncover when we ask, you know, in a more meaningful way, like, hey, dude, you know, like, how are you doing man? What's up? You know, talk to me and, and I think that pain is difficult to deal with and to confront, especially in kind of the environments they're probably already in. So you're constantly, you know, maintaining this at ready kind of orientation towards the world, which you know forces you to not really have to sit with your emotions, but instead you either drink it away, smoke it away, or you bury it.

Speaker 1: 8:59

Right, yeah, I love that you know you're mentioning that. And I also love that you say know, you're mentioning that. And I also love that you say you know normalizing, right, uh, and I am so happy that, yeah, you know we're seeing it more, right, that male or men are coming to you know therapy more and and they're reaching for help. Right, they're looking for help, because I can imagine how it must feel, right, like having these really strong emotions and not knowing how to deal with them. Right, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 9:30

You know, like, uh, I, you know, uh, I've. You know I've worked in the foster care system in the past and you know, when you ask these boys, you know they're very angry and look there's like there's always multiple dimensions to it, right, there's one about, like, culture, one about income inequality, one about, you know, systemic racism throughout history. It just and this can be very, but at the most basic, I try to approach them with this kind of idea that, like, dude, it sucks to hurt. You know, it just sucks, it really just sucks. There's no other way about it. You know, tell me, when it sucks, what do you do? You know, like, how do you? Who do you turn to? What are the things that kind of help bring peace to you? And some guys you know they're uh, a lot of guys, like blue collar workers, you know usually turn it to alcohol, and so, yeah, normalization is so, so important.

Speaker 1: 10:21

Right, yeah, absolutely. And because then once you know right, ok, yes, I'm having these emotions and this is what I do, right to help me. We might not see it as a healthy way to do it Right, but that's why they're coming to a professional where maybe you can work with them and give them some tips.

Speaker 1: 10:41

So if you know, let's say we do have somebody like that, right, that, okay, you know I'm dealing with my emotions, you know, on the weekends, by drinking, right, like maybe, what are some of the tips that you would recommend to someone that hate that it's having these really strong emotions and they recognize, right now, I know that because I this way, uh, and then I drink alcohol or drink just in general. Um, I forget about them, right, but I want to be able to not do that yeah.

Speaker 2: 11:09

So if they don't want to drink anymore and they're kind of struggling with alcohol, so it really depends on, you know, the severity of the their drinking problem, right, if they are, uh, you know, functioning alcoholics, and you know I'm very much about kind of slowly reducing their alcohol consumption, kind of jumping into it. You know, quitting cold turkey works. For some others it doesn't, because for many it functions as a kind of a quick band-aid right. And also there's kind of cultural norms, right, that if I'm going to go to see a football game with my buddies and I don't want to drink, but everybody else is drinking, okay. You know, like we have a society that's built around alcohol consumption, and so when we talk about triggers, for example, the triggers are never ending, right. And how much can an individual really put, like what internal strength can they draw on to really kind of say, look, no, I'm not going to do this when the triggers are, you know, right outside as you leave the house, the commercials you see, the films you see, and so in that sense, I think first is helping them recognize that like, look, you know, this is the environment you're in, right, so understand why alcohol is always in the home is because it's always present everywhere you go.

Speaker 2: 12:29

And so so, kind of going from there, you know, then I try to at least establish kind of like a path of, like you know, slowly reducing from, let's say, like I don't know, like a case a day you know I've served with Marines that you know I don't know like a case a day.

Speaker 2: 12:43

You know I've served with Marines that you know them, and I used to share a case a day, you know, and start off very early in the morning and so, and it was really kind of slowly reducing that, but also bringing them in and helping them find different ways to recognize what triggers their desire to drink, what leads them to want to say, man, I need to drink, right. The other thing would be then to slowly kind of give them the tools. You know have someone to turn to. You can even I do encourage people to go to AA, I do encourage people to, you know, connect with a sponsor that you know can keep them accountable, like the entry point right, the kind of like the entry point into helping them improve, because I think when it comes to trauma, you know you have to kind of build up to that type of processing work for that. You know, people are at different places at different times.

Speaker 1: 13:31

Right, yeah, I love that you talk about that right. Not one person is going to be the same right and they are all going to need different things, right, different interventions and support, and so that's you know. Definitely awesome that you're talking about that too their own struggles.

Speaker 2: 14:04

You know, yeah, absolutely. It's different for everybody, but typically there's, you know, one or two formulas that we can use to kind of approach them initially.

Speaker 1: 14:09

Right, yeah, and I love that you also talk about giving them the tools. Right, of course, you're bringing the awareness right of the environment and the reasons why you know those actions happen. Okay, but now what? Right, right, okay, now let's give you some of the tools that you can use to help you, right, change that, uh, and that support, because I feel that that's also the same with nutrition, right, um, we feel first, we do the awareness, right, okay, what? How are we eating? Right, the same thing. Environment, right, our environment plays a huge role in in our decisions, in our subconscious right, because a lot of the times, we might do things that we're trying to change, but because we've done them for so long, it's like automatic, right, we just do them automatically.

Speaker 2: 14:53

Yes, absolutely. The thing about that is, I have to point out, it's not as if these companies don't spend billions of dollars in marketing research to you know, to kind of like create the colors of their signs. You know, in a very particular way that you know, I understand, like with food, for example, fast food chains very particularly use different specific forms of color that when you see them there's almost like a trigger response. Right, you see it and you're like, oh man, you know it would be nice to have a, a, a big Mac, or something happens to me every time I go on the freeway If I see a.

Speaker 2: 15:27

McDonald's, I'm like, oh man, a big Mac would be nice right now with a sweet powerade Right. And so, yeah, on top of that there's, you know, the triggers are all around us, and so, you know, it really comes back to like helping them also be aware that they are also in an environment that is not the most conducive to uh dealing with alcoholism. So, to help them recognize the environment they're in as well as their own internal struggles, I think gives them kind of a couple of uh ways to kind of address, you know um, the internal and external triggers right, yeah, amazing, uh, and I'm sure that doesn't happen overnight.

Speaker 1: 16:04

Right, it takes time to be able to to do that.

Speaker 1: 16:07

Um, and then also, that is not always like a straight line, right, it's, we're going to do, it's going to be opened down, the journey is going to be opened down. So now let's. I think it's important to talk about, um, you know, the feelings of guilt, right, or maybe the feelings of failure If, like, if we're struggling with something specific, right, or if we're having these really strong emotions and we feel that it's our fault, right, like, everything that is happening is our fault. And I feel that, you know, if, if we're having those feelings too right, almost it feels paralyzing to even do anything about them. Like, how do you deal with that?

Speaker 2: 16:49

You know, like guilt is something I really feel like is one of the things that really propels individuals, especially men, to act out and kind of in ways that are counterproductive to their own well-being. Because I think, like you know, in our society we tend to talk about, you know, picking yourself up by your own bootstraps, right, but you know, I guess, well, there's like a long history of neoliberalism as well, as I think, if it's you know, I, a few years ago, I was seeing a client who really struggled with having paying rent, right, like it's you know, you know, lived in an apartment and struggling to pay rent and, um, and really blamed himself for not being able to do that. That is a feeling that many men feel, because underlying that is this assumption that uh men are supposed to do this right, that uh men are responsible and should take on the responsibility of you know. But we don't live in that environment anymore where, you know, and there's a very real, also political, dimension to this that, you know, I don't have time to get into, but I think it's something that we have to think about, because when we internalize this guilt right, I really kind of encourage my clients to kind of do an inventory of you know what, what is in their control, you know what really is out of their control. Do they control market forces as it relates to, kind of rent prices? Do they control, you know, the cost of fuel, things like that? It's, it's, it's out of their control. And so I think there's an element of like kind of recognizing the structure as it is. Now, this doesn't solve the problem, obviously, right, but the idea is that the burden they carry on themselves is not theirs to carry to begin with. Right, it's out of their control.

Speaker 2: 18:40

Now, when it comes to, you know, feeling, dealing with feelings of failure, of having struggled with something in the past and trying to come to terms with it, like I, you know, like I know that very intimately because of my own time in the military, you know. And then I went to UC Davis, studied history and Middle East studies, and you know, there was a of a guilt that accompanied my kind of participation as an infantryman specifically. And for me, you know, I, I think it's really, you know, when we talk about, like, let's say, self-esteem, right, we have to do acts that are esteemable, you know, that are, are acts that are, are okay. So so the idea is that, uh, we're carrying this weight that we can't really ditch right, we can't concretize like we're trying to redeem ourselves from our previous action, but all we can really do is continue to do good, going forward. And as you then reflect on your past, you know, maybe redemption then is in that kind of you know it's, it's a real commitment to changing yourselves fundamentally.

Speaker 2: 19:50

Does that make sense? So that's what I'm trying to say. So if it doesn't come across clearly, just let me know. Okay.

Speaker 1: 19:57

Yep, Perfect, it makes sense Absolutely and changing the way that we feel. Right, it's um. It's a lot of work.

Speaker 2: 20:06

It's a lot of work. It's a lot of work, yeah, and yeah. So, like you know, so like, if you know, sometimes I see people that struggle with their self-esteem, you know, and there's, of course, many ways to kind of approach it, but one of the ways that I really do encourage people to think about is service. You know, to build self-esteem requires one to do esteemable acts. You know, to participate in community, you know, we're so cut off from one another and I think social media further exacerbates that right.

Speaker 2: 20:42

We're alienated, we're atomized from one another and, you know, we get lost in this kind of comparison with that person, with that specific job, and then we're constantly given ideas of what it means to live the perfect life, right, either it be through film, through, you know, through the, you know what is it?

Speaker 2: 20:56

The American dream? And I think sometimes, when people don't live up to that specific kind of vision or fantasy I even sometimes call it a fantasy it is disorienting, you know. But look, you know, like what is it? Tuition fees were? You know, almost nothing, you know, in the 60s, 70s, versus what they are now. And if it wasn't, for example, even the Marine Corps, you know, I'd wonder what kind of debt I'd be in and and in that sense you know very point to often to the structure around us. And then, in order to kind of really deal with the guilt, I think it's in the process of serving others and as well, as sometimes it is really just about trying to process and allowing yourself to accept what cannot be changed and only changing what you can do going forward.

Speaker 1: 22:09

Right, yeah, that can do going forward them right. It will require just massive, massive amounts of power and energy, um, and so it's better to focus on the things that we can directly control right, like our nutrition or the way that we move our bodies or more so, like our independent way of doing things. Right, because even if we wanted to change, you know, our partners, that's difficult, right, that's their own human and we can change them. Right, that's who they are.

Speaker 1: 22:32

But we can change how we react right to maybe things that they say to us or something like that. But, yeah, that's definitely difficult. So, yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. Now I think I want to ask you, right, like, how do you, as a clinician, right, how do you recognize when someone is struggling with their emotions and to deal with their emotions, how do you, as a clinician, recognize that, yeah, I mean, there's multiple ways, right, there's multiple tells, there's multiple ways that they might even have some internal insight, or a family member has basically told them like, hey, look, you have to go to therapy.

Speaker 2: 23:06

Or they've recognized themselves. So, you know, in private practice, especially, right there, kind of coming to us with some sort of an awareness that I need help with something. And so, whereas, like you know, in other spaces and sometimes even in private practice, right, you'll have people that come that have been recorded to by the courts, you know, or by you know some other institution, um, but in this case, you know, when they do come, there's kind of an awareness of what's been that, what they've been struggling with, and then it's really through that kind of process of building a solid rapport, you know, like a very, very close client clinician relationship, um, in order to kind of delve into these particular stuck points. And so what I do, let's say, if I have a guy come in and he's struggling with, you know, some emotional kind of struggle, he has some emotional struggles, is unable to process them, I just begin by asking you know, like, what brings you to therapy? You know what made you interested in coming to me, right, what is it that, uh, that uh motivated you to kind of pick up the phone and do this. And so then we kind of begin from there and then, as we're going through their past or even what they're going on through their present I, this is weird. I'm kind of very visual person, but it's like, um, I allow the conversation to go where they need it to go, just for them to allow themselves to kind of express themselves fully in a very safe environment.

Speaker 2: 24:32

And then I ask very specific questions, right, that asks for more details, that asks for more kind of insight into you, so I can kind of gain some insight into what they're experiencing. And so from there then I can see, like you know, I've had clients in the past that you know struggle with someone correcting them, you know. And so there's this kind of defiance, there's resistance to being told what to do at work. And then it's like, okay, let's explore that man. Like why such an intense reaction to, let's say, recommendations from a supervisor or critiques from a coworker? Right, you start asking questions and then there's, you see, a history of resistance to, you know, parental figures, parental figures who never really kind of engaged with them in honest terms, and they've had to fight to be able to kind of secure their voice. You know, in that relationship, and so then obviously every authority figure that comes around them is going to be a kind of an antagonist right, and you know, in terms of like protecting one's ego, what else can you do?

Speaker 1: 25:41

Right, yeah, it's just so fascinating. Absolutely Right. But it's so fascinating right to, really, because I also like to ask my clients, right, like the same thing, like, okay, yeah, what brings you to me? Right?

Speaker 1: 25:57

Let's talk about your goals, and it's usually at first it's very superficial, right, like the answer is very superficial. But as you ask more questions and you learn more about their true goals, then you really understand. You know why is it that they're here, and it usually takes, you know, a good amount of time to figure that out. But I love that you said that you have to build a rapport. Right, because if there is not that connection in that rapport, these are things that are so intimate and so painful, right, that you have to feel so one safe. You have to feel safety in order for you to share that information and allow yourself to heal. But there has to be that true rapport, and I see that too with my nutrition clients, and so I love that they are honest with me.

Speaker 1: 26:49

And if they're not, I think as clinicians we know, right, when, when someone is still working through that, right, and I think they're still trying to figure out, okay, is this really the person that is going to support me and help me? Um, because I've had other patient clients too, right, that tell me. You know I've worked with someone else and it's, you know it's difficult and you know I'm not sure if this is for me. So I'm sure that's the same with therapy, you know, and so I think I love that you bring that up about the rapport right and making your clients feel safe and that they can trust you.

Speaker 2: 27:27

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 27:29

Awesome. So I think you know talking about, obviously, men and mental health, I can imagine how that has changed, you know, after the pandemic. And a positive thing, right, that more mental health services have been available for just Americans in general, but also the accessibility of it, right, that, hey, if you're not able to come in, go and do telehealth. So hopefully that has, you know, helped. But I can't imagine just how much that has affected men and women as well in terms of their mental health, right After the pandemic, during the pandemic, and that uncertainty, right right, have you seen that? You know that change as well?

Speaker 2: 28:13

Oh yeah, I mean, like you know, I I have many clients that work for private companies uh, that during you know, like even, um, even the pandemic, you know, there were like supply chain kind of uh slowdowns and, as a result, the work was severely, severely impacted. And, you know, sometimes, even if the work is impacted, the demand is still the same, right, and so there's a kind of like a tension there that can't be resolved because, you know, global shipping had been affected and, as a result of sales and marketing within the companies had kind of declined. These men are sometimes and women as well like women were part of this as well. Specifically as we're talking about guys, yeah, there's this kind of feeling of like, well, how do I kind of resolve this internal tension? I think, especially guys who kind of really find their purpose through their specific job right or providing for their families.

Speaker 2: 29:10

I think that time where they had to, you know, be at home or you know they weren't getting the hours they needed or they weren't essential in any way, shape or form, was disorienting, as I said earlier, but also scary. You know, how do you pay for rent? And this is before, you know, like the state responded in a meaningful way, and so those questions were very pertinent at the time. That's a lot of stress to carry, especially with the prospect of you know what impact the coronavirus can have on the body. Right, if you're working in like construction sites, if you're working in environments where you're around a lot of people, I can sadness and a lot of fear. I can hear that in their voices when I talk to them, you know. And so, yeah, I think it does leave a kind of has left a significant impact on a lot of folks and, yeah, we do see it quite often.

Speaker 1: 30:21

Right, yeah, I can imagine, you know, even for us, right, thinking about it, and just that uncertainty of, like, what's going to happen right to the world, what's going to happen to the workforce, or like, and, yeah, that has changed us forever for sure, right, it's a historical change.

Speaker 2: 30:40

Absolutely. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1: 30:43

Yeah, so I think you know. The next question would be like what are some of the tips that you would give someone that maybe they know that they're struggling with their emotions right, they're struggling to, or they're feeling that they don't know how to handle their stress. Or you know what are some of the tips that you would give someone if they haven't reached out for help, tips that you would give them if they haven't reached out for help, like tips that you would give them to to help them manage those feelings.

Speaker 2: 31:12

That's a great question. I think so, for, you know, any men that are listening to this, um, struggling with emotions. Sometimes we think it's just, you know, like okay, like uh, you're, you don't see anything but those very specific emotions, right? I think one of the things you know a lot of guys struggle with is shame, and, you know, for any one that knows that there are, they are struggling with some either be anger, depression, you know, uh, just unprocessed kind of uh history, uh, traumatic history, whatever it may be, you know, and if it really does get in the way of your ability to be present with your family, if it really impacts the way your relationship to alcohol, any of that kind of stuff. You know, the clinicians are there to help you. Just frankly, their whole goal is to help assist you as you try to process what you're kind of going through, and we can either function as in specific moments for holding space we can be there to validate, and then we can help you process and give you the tools necessary to deal with this stuff. I would, you know, encourage these guys to really, you know, see us as, in some ways, facilitators, where we're trying to facilitate a conversation between ourselves in our, our past and our history, or or what we might be experiencing in the present, and to kind of just parse it up. You know, the way I kind of describe it to some of my younger clients is as if, like you know, you remember those old headphones with the jacks and everything. You'd put them in your pocket perfectly kind of you know, uh, like, uh, untangled and everything and everything you'd put them in your pocket perfectly kind of you know, like untangled and everything. And the second you pull them out, there are all these knots and everything. And so our goal is first to kind of untangle those knots right and because it's hard to think through our experiences when there's just so many painful, painful, stuck points, and in developing those skills, learning those kind of coping practices as well as grounding techniques, then we can really start trying to take apart those knots right. And then we can sit back and, as we get some distance from those experiences, we can look at them and kind of process them and in a certain way put them to rest.

Speaker 2: 33:35

For certain people and I think you know, don't be nervous, reluctant to reach out to a mental health clinician it's frankly like I see a therapist. You know, I've seen a therapist for man like six, seven years, you know, and, and frankly, it was one of the best decisions I ever made in my life and and you know, guys, it's. You know, having come through, you know I'm a high school dropout, you know. So I have my GED and I was a knucklehead back in the day going to the Marine Corps.

Speaker 2: 34:05

You know this, that there are other possibilities, that there are other ways of inhabiting this world that aren't fully dictated by the pain that you carry. You know that it's OK to be kinder, softer, gentler, sweeter. You know, I think that's one of the most wonderful parts of positive masculinity, this kind of tenderness. You know, I think that's one of the most wonderful parts of of positive masculinity, this kind of tenderness. You know.

Speaker 2: 34:35

And so, and most of the guys I do see do have that really sweet side to them, but sometimes it takes a little bit of time for them to really inhabit it, when they don't feel like they're, you know, um, in danger or you know, almost at the kind of in this crisis state, and then you see it, and a lot of these guys are wonderful. You know that I work with. So, yeah, guys, if you listen to this, you know. I highly encourage you to reach out to a mental health clinician. You know they're sometimes really chill and you can shop around. Of course, you know, if you don't get along with a clinician, go to another one.

Speaker 1: 35:11

Right, yeah, clinician, if you go to another one, right, yeah, I love that you you bring that up right, because sometimes I do hear that you know, I I had a session with somebody and we didn't connect or it didn't go well, right, but giving the opportunity right to another one, right where you can connect and have that rapport, um, because you know it's, yeah, it's life changing, right, it can really help you manage those emotions. But I also really love that you said that part of shame right. A lot of the times I do hear that as well, like I feel that I feel shame, that I have that I need help, right.

Speaker 1: 35:46

But yeah we're there to help, right. We went to school for that. We are here to support you and help you, right. And so I really like that you mentioned that right, not feeling shame because you're having these emotions, right. You're human, you're going to have them, yeah.

Speaker 2: 36:03

Yeah, and we're such social creatures, you know, and you know prior to kind of like these very cookie cutter homes. You know we had communities to turn to right. You know I have friends that go back to Mexico and they go to their small villages and everybody knows everybody and there's kind of a huge network of people that you can turn to. But here it's more. You know we're very atomized, we're separated from one another. Obviously, as a clinician, there's always like this kind of boundary that we maintain. That's very important.

Speaker 2: 36:35

It is to say that you know a lot of people don't have that anymore, and so how do you process painful experiences? Who do you talk to that can reciprocate in a way that is beneficial instead of, you know, being like a burden? You know, because the other side of this is that you know the person you're telling is also having to carry this on them. You know and, and, and you know and. So there's a lot of conversations about, you know, the emotional labor aspect of it. Right, is that it? You know, if you're close to someone and they're willing to do that, that's fine. But I think the kind of understanding is that nobody really wants to hear a downer. You know and and and that's, and which is unfortunate because we desperately need people that are, you know, gentler to their bros. You know, and and and and sensitive to their needs. But you know, until that happens, you know, like I I'm, I'll be more than happy to work with you.

Speaker 1: 37:32

So yeah, absolutely. And I think that is so true for specifically for men, right, I know, for us women, you know, if we have someone where we feel that connection, we talk to them, right, we tell them pretty much everything that is happening. But for men it's more difficult, right, because they don't want to be judged, they don't want to be seen as soft, right.

Speaker 1: 37:53

But it's just that human nature, like, hey, I need to let someone know what I'm feeling right now, and so if they don't have that, right, I can imagine that heavy load. And so, having a therapist, right, having a clinician to be able to listen and help you with those emotions, right, that is just, I mean, it's so needed, because if you don't have it anywhere else, right, essentially, you know, yeah, that's damaging, right, that's definitely a heavy load. So I love those words. Any final thoughts, any final tips that you want to give to men, right In general, about mental health and you know, again, again, if they're needing help. Um, any final, any final thoughts or tips?

Speaker 2: 38:40

Yeah, I guess my message would be simple is that, uh, you know, guys, I I just want to validate that Like man, like I know it sucks out there. You know, I really really understand it sucks. You know, I know a lot of folks who are living paydeck to paycheck. You know, rents kind of always around the corner. You get the paycheck and it just disappears the moment it comes in, because that's not your fault. You know, that's just not your fault.

Speaker 2: 39:00

You don't control these things. They're out of your control. You know, and obviously me telling you that doesn't make a difference. But I do want you to know that that that's not your burden to carry either. You know, and you can look at it from that angle where, like, look, I just live in a, I just live in this world. I didn't create it Right and so in that way, guys, be kind to yourself, man, like, be gentle, there's no reason to.

Speaker 2: 39:24

You know, see what we see on TV. You know, uh, I know, having been in the Marines, I see all sorts of buddies that are country guys, that are city dudes, you know, live on the burbs, and they're always some sort of kind of mimicry of some sort of idealized life that people want to present to the world, but oftentimes that's, you know it's, it's, it's a performance, you know. You know if they're watching some show with cowboys and stuff and immediately later, like I'll see people wearing Ariats or something, and so like it's all, like I feel like sometimes it's very much like a performance. You know that. Like you know I'm a tough guy, you know, and it's like look man, you don't have to do that around me, it's cool, and you don't have to do that around, just to sit and relax.

Speaker 1: 40:11

Right and be you. Yeah, absolutely, I love that. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2: 40:22

Let's see if anyone wants to reach out or if they want to see you as a clinician, how can they contact you. So if anybody wants to contact me, please just give me a call 559-930-2210, where we take all types of kind of insurances. Yeah, If you want to be, come in or if you want to do telehealth, I'd be more than happy to to work with you.

Speaker 1: 40:41

So yeah, Awesome, yeah, and I'll make sure to add that phone number in the show notes so if you're driving or busy, you can always look at the show notes and it'll be. It'll be there. But but thank you so much again. Just deep, for you know, being able to um come up and do this topic with me about, you know, mental health and men, and for the listeners, um sharing with a friend, um, if you know anybody that you know will benefit from listening to this episode, please share it. Um. And that is it for today, my friends. Thank you so much for your time and I will see you in another episode.